What am I doing wrong?????

[Doug in San Diego]

Apparently I do not know how to reassemble a motor after removing the head.

I have had my head off twice, and both times it began leaking oil out the sides.

Today it seemed like it may have been seriously leaking because there was oil everywhere (now I have to put oil in it before I drive back home)

What am I doing wrong?

I torqued the head to 18 pounds. I ran it them torqued them again. (Brand new gasket each time)

I feel like I am missing something.

Should I put loctite on the bolts?

Luckily I have a new head gasket, and planned on taking it apart this weekend, but I would like to actually do it right this time

Help

[kliff]

What kind of gasket are you using, metal, or organic?
Are you cleaning the head and cylinder mating surfaces, really clean? I often find black shellac like material stuck to the head or cylinder surfaces, or both, if a metal head gasket was used. gotta scrape that stuff off, WITHOUT gouging the aluminum... I use singlr edged razor blades and a LOT of patience. That miniscule amount of debris can cause oil leaks, blown head gaskets...

Your head and cylinder surfaces aren't rough or gouged, scraped, are they?

You checked them for warpage, or hopefullly lack there of, didn't you?

Bunches of variables, but I have yet been able to pull a head, and replace a gasket, that won't leak, without going through, checking, and correcting any or all of the above. I keep preaching it......these things ain't plug & play, and once you open that can o worms, it's up to you, to be sure everything is right.

Check it out, start with cleanliness, flatness, etc, before assembling again..... those gaskets ain't cheap, not when you start using them in multiples.

How about Marines? How'd his turn out?

[Doug in San Diego]

We haven't done them yet - We plan on putting the new springs and cams in this weekend.

After reading this, maybe he will want to work on his own.

How do you check for flatness on the head? I did check it, but not with any special tool.

I definitely did not clean it - I will next time -

I poured a bunch of oil in for the trip home, and baby'd it the whole way. No smoke coming out the tail pipe like last time, so hopefully I caught this before it got bad.

I will try to clean it up and find where the leak is, but with the plastic cover and wind spray it is really hard to pin point

Kinda wishin I had kept it all stock at this point. I seem to be my worst enemy.

[usfmarine]

Eeek Doug, we might be the blind leading the deaf this Sunday. Sounds like you located a torque wrench.

Kliff told me that the gaskets from partsforscooters do not require additional sealant, so I was planning on not treating the gasket ahead of time.

Remember, my scooter had an oil leak from the factory, and a mechanic reinforced the head gasket with some kind of crap. I'm thinking I might need to do that to prevent an oil leak.

I'm open to any and all advice. Doug and I want some dry scoots after our spring installs!

I got my A9 cam from Carlos. That thing is much smaller than I thought it was.

At some point, it might just be easier to buy Kliff a plane ticket to come out here to SoCal and to help us all at once.

[kliff]

Nov 9, 2009 19:41:05 GMT -5 Doug in San Diego said:

We haven't done them yet - We plan on putting the new springs and cams in this weekend.

After reading this, maybe he will want to work on his own.

How do you check for flatness on the head? I did check it, but not with any special tool.

I definitely did not clean it - I will next time -

I poured a bunch of oil in for the trip home, and baby'd it the whole way. No smoke coming out the tail pipe like last time, so hopefully I caught this before it got bad.

I will try to clean it up and find where the leak is, but with the plastic cover and wind spray it is really hard to pin point

Kinda wishin I had kept it all stock at this point. I seem to be my worst enemy.

Flatness, is checked with a machinist's straight edge, or SS rule, and a feeler Gage.

NOT a ruler, yard stick, scrap piece of steel, or anything else you "think" is straight. We are dealing wit thousandths of an inch, it MUST be straight.

AFTER cleaning the head surface, ( I'm betting on This, since you say you didn't) hold your head in one hand, mating surface/combustion chamber up. Using the thin edge of you machinists rule, put it on the head, from head bolt hole, to another, in a perimeter fashion. While holing it firm, but with NO undue downward pressure, look toward a light source. Can you see any light between the straight edge, and the head surface?
If yes, then get out the feeler Gage, and open it to the .0015" blade. Will it fit in between the head and the SE, at the light source? If yes, continue up the feeler gage, just out of curiosity, to see how bad.
Steel/metal gaskets, sprayed with Copper coat, .002" is the MAXIMUM warpage
Steel gaskets, dry/nekkid, .0015" is the MAXIMUM
Organic gaskets, with the silicone beads around the cam chain opening, and all bolt holes, with a steel fire ring around the combustion chamber, .003" MAXIMUM

You see, we're dealing with itty bitty numbers, your kids plastic ruler from school won't cut it. Sears sell 6" Machinists rules for a couple of bucks, HF may have them even cheaper.

OK, say ya got a little warpage going here. Ya ain't got a milling machine in the garage either, huh?, Machinist's lapping block....dammit man.... Back to basics, cheap, easy, and effective, just takes a little more elbow grease.

Check you yellow pages, find a Glass company, not necessarily a window company, forget Lowes, Home Depot, etc, on this one.

You want a 1 foot square piece, 1/2" thick PLATE glass. this stuff is flat and smooth.

Got your PG, now as tightly as possible, tape a piece of 600 grit sand paper to it, and spray it down with WD-40. With the valves/springs/etc all removed from the head, proceed to lap the mating surface on the paper in a figure "8" pattern. Straight line back and forth is a NO-NO> DDT

Every now and again, pick it up wipe it off, see how its coming, you'll see where the metal is coming off, when the entire surface is brite and clean, you're done. Use plenty of WD 40, change paper frequently, and plan on being there an hour or two....maybe 3. It's not hard, but can be time consuming. Don't try to be a speed demon, cause then you'll tilt the head, and make it worse.

Before you reassemble, go ahead and lap your valves, then clean, clean, and clean again. I use aerosol brake cleaner, and compressed air. The two will get all the grit out, all of it.

Be sure you removed your valve stem seals too, if not, crap will trap itself in there.

Be sure to lube the valve stems before sliding them into their guides. I use Crane engine assembly lube(habit), but on any used valve, a good coating of your preferred engine oil will work just fine. Lucas oil stabilizer also works for a great assembly lube.

Be sure that new cam, and bearings are well lubed too. no need wiping out new parts on a dry start.

That's about all I can think of rat now guys....gotta get some coffee...back in a few.

[performancescoot]

One other thing you might want to look for is a crack. It happens near the two outside mounting bolt location where the chain for the cam rides. I've seen very small cracks in this area and oil will pour out of there. Just look inside while the head is off. It's not common, but it does happen.

[usfmarine]

Kliff,

what brand of silicone do you use to reinforce your head gaskets?

What steps do you take when applying it to the gasket (i.e. do you apply it to the gasket and let it semi-dry before installing, etc.)?

[kliff]

Nov 10, 2009 11:34:02 GMT -5 usfmarine said:

Kliff,

what brand of silicone do you use to reinforce your head gaskets?

What steps do you take when applying it to the gasket (i.e. do you apply it to the gasket and let it semi-dry before installing, etc.)?

I don't reinforce my gaskets with silicone., Other than a light finger smear( clear, #66 I think?) on the top and bottom of the base gasket, where the crankcase halves meet.

I use either factory siliconed head gaskets, or 100% metal head gaskets. The all metal gaskets I do coat both sides with aerosol spray copper coat, and try to allow 24 hour drying period, before use.

If you feel the need to use anything on an organic gasket, there is an aerosol called Gasket Tack, a reddish, sticky spray. Worked well on H-D EVO base gaskets to prevent leaks. I'm not really a big fan of gasket "reinforcement," as they are designed to do a job, and 9 times outta 10, will do it.... that 1 time, is why I use copper coat, and a dab of silicone....LOL

[usfmarine]

www.autozone.com/autozone/catalog/accessories/accessoriesShelf.jsp?categoryDisplayName=Sealants+and+Adhesives&fromType=accessories&fromString=search&parentId=1309-10&filterByKeyWord=tack¤tPage=1&navValue=100230&categoryNValue=101309&fromWhere=&itemId=230-10&displayName=Gasket+Sealant

Kliff, are one of these what you're talking about? Just slather the organic gasket with some of this tack stuff and then slop it onto the cylinder? Is there a drying period involved?

[kliff]

Nov 12, 2009 1:15:00 GMT -5 usfmarine said:

www.autozone.com/autozone/catalog/accessories/accessoriesShelf.jsp?categoryDisplayName=Sealants+and+Adhesives&fromType=accessories&fromString=search&parentId=1309-10&filterByKeyWord=tack¤tPage=1&navValue=100230&categoryNValue=101309&fromWhere=&itemId=230-10&displayName=Gasket+Sealant

Kliff, are one of these what you're talking about? Just slather the organic gasket with some of this tack stuff and then slop it onto the cylinder? Is there a drying period involved?

The aerosol, spray can, on one side only! for base gaskets only, NOT head gaskets, yes.

the can with the brush, or the tube....too easy to use TOO much, and it then goes into places you don't want it. Whenever you can, with High-Tack and CopperCoat, use the spray, or use nothing.

High-Tack, BASE gasket, one side only, crankcase side. Drying, 15 minutes.

Coppercoat, METAL head gasket only, BOTH sides. Drying, I prefer 24 hours, but use 6 hours for a minimum (plan ahead)

[Rebel]

that tack stuff makes a real mess. the only thing I really recommend it for is to use on a cork valve cover gasket. And like Kliff says, one side only, basically just to hold it on until you get the thing in place. This stuff really makes it a pain to remove if you need to work on it again later, cleaning off is a pain. Personally I'd use a little smear of silicone to do the same thing.