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Post by redhandmoto on May 23, 2009 16:54:54 GMT -5
Ok, while I've been getting the CT70 clone sorted out, derestricting the wife's Honda Met, getting a performance pipe fpr the GTS and a new windscreen for the PS250, I've also been reading about Mr. Brent's adventures with his Triton, and admiring the stripped-down look of the latest incarnation. I gotta get a 2T.
Happened to stop by a Genuine dealer a couple weeks ago and got to take a little test spin on the Rattler 110. Oh, Mamma Mia!, that's nice! But it's also 2700 frogskins MSRP, and that's a lotta geetas OTD. So I've been very impressed by the performance gents posting here and elsewhere have gotten out of 49cc 2-stroke platforms, especially considering how, uh, cheep they are.
There's a little dealer not far away who's been in business for 30 years, and who carries nothing but 49cc 2-strokes in a bewildering variety of styles and brands - no Ventos but things like TGBs and etc.
So - because I am just getting into learning to wrench, and have zip experience or knowledge about 2T machines, I'd like to ask for the opinion and judgement of anyone who'd like to respond: what's the best of the current crop of 2-strokes to mod for performance? The most amenable to kitting, with decent aftermarket components? If I can start with a solid 49cc engine to get familiar with, I can avoid the tags-and-insurance thing until I get handy enough to kit it later.
The guide to all things 2-stroke here and at SD is a godsend, and I plan to make great use of it.
Please, jump right in - I'm all ears.
with thanks,
rhm
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Post by Rebel on May 23, 2009 17:16:20 GMT -5
redhandmoto,
Welcome to the forum. I'm sure that you will get some good advice on this topic, not from me though, I'm a 2 stroke idiot myself. The guys that ride them are sold on them because there is a lot of potential for power there, so if you are looking for a lot of power in a small package, 2 strokes are for you.
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Post by redhandmoto on May 23, 2009 17:32:39 GMT -5
Ah, thank you, Reb - that is my hope.
The Genuine stuff - the 110 Rattler and 49 Roughouse - look real interesting. Once had a Genuine 150 Italia 4T, and the quality was there, so I'm well disposed to the brand.
However...was just reading a series of posts over on an enthusiasts site by a guy out in CA who'e been de-constructing a Rat and developing performance mods. He has discovered that PGO (the PGO "Naked", as it's known in Taiwan) is well-nigh asphixiated in design - the PGO engineers don't let it breathe. I believe the fella fabbed an intake of some sort to get around that...
Soooo, a somewhat more expensive (the MSRP for the Roughouse is about 2K) platform that requires a custom fab just to begin to aspirate is probably not a good idea for me.
It has been great to stumble across this site and SD - quiet, polite places filled with folks who know their stuff and are willing to share...
2-Stroke idiot, you say? You should see me fumbling around my bikes - I don't know nuthin' from nuthin'...
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Post by Rebel on May 23, 2009 17:45:05 GMT -5
Well, i have a bit of confidence with 4 stroke motors, I've tinkered with them for about 40 years, The only thing I have ever done with a 2 stroke it use them for chainsaws and for weed eaters, I've never ridden one, and I've never taken one apart and fixed it, so they are just a bit out of my experience zone. Now if I ever get a friend of mine to let go of a little 49cc moped, I'll play with that some just for the fun of it and the learning experience.
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Post by redhandmoto on May 23, 2009 17:53:11 GMT -5
I hear ya, Reb - and your learning curve will doubtless be a whole lot smoother than mine; I already have an ER trip and 3 stitches, just from a sprocket swap...learning thereby why folks prefer an impact wrench to a ratchet and a hammer...
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Post by Rebel on May 23, 2009 18:03:33 GMT -5
two words for you, Safety Gear!
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Post by redhandmoto on May 23, 2009 18:23:52 GMT -5
Yeah, Reb, but nuthin' fixes stupid...
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Post by Rebel on May 23, 2009 23:56:20 GMT -5
LOL, well the final vote is not in on that yet.
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Post by 90GTVert on May 24, 2009 8:40:20 GMT -5
I would pick up a scooter with a 1E40QMB minarelli engine, or the Rattler. The torque that a big 2 stroke makes is fun for getting around town without using much throttle, but $2700 is a bit pricey. The minarelli clone engines have tons of parts available. You can get 49cc race kits, mild 70cc kits, race 70cc kits, stroker cranks, big bore kits that will put you over 100cc with the stroker crank, coils, CDIs, lighter flywheels, inner rotor kits, exhausts, carbon fiber reeds, new reed blocks, carbs, intakes, rollers, variators, clutches, springs, gears, you name it. You can swap on a pretty mild 70cc kit that whould be fine with no other mods and really improve torque or you can pull the whole engine apart and buid a 100cc monster minarelli or you can do little tweaks to the stock motor. Pretty much any option is out there.
I don't pay much attention to certain brands of Chinese scoots, so mainly I would look for the 1E40QMB and 12-13" wheels. I like Vento because I have the ability to order parts easily online with diagrams etc... but I've been having a hard time getting orders through them lately. I'm sure the Taiwan made scoots are a little nicer, but I don't know if any of them come with a minarelli style engine. Even if you get a TGB, which I think uses a Franco Morini engine, you should still be able to find a 70 kit, pipe, and more. The selection just isn't there like the 1E40QMB.
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Post by Rebel on May 24, 2009 10:09:18 GMT -5
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Post by 90GTVert on May 24, 2009 11:20:41 GMT -5
The bottom link appears to be a Triton clone with a minarell engine. I would stay far away from the top link. 10" wheels, front and rear drum brakes (I like to at least have disc front), and that's definitely not a minarelli clone. I think that may be the D1E41QMB engine. Those things don't like to go much over 30-35MPH and parts are hard to come by. It's also a 0.8 gallon fuel tank. The Triton clones, and many others, are closer to 1.5 gallons. If you do much work the 0.8gal tank will be no fun. My 1.4gal tank only gives me a potential range of 56 miles if I ran it to bone dry. With a 70cc kit you'd probably be able to make it around 100 miles with the larger tanks, and only 50-60 miles with the 0.8 gallon tank. So there's another thing to put on your list. If you wanna take long trips with a modified 2 stroke (without constantly stopping for gas) aim for over a gallon fuel capacity. One thing they certainly can't match the 4 strokes in is fuel efficiency. Oh well, you can stop and fill up before the 4 stroke 50 catches up. ;D
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Post by redhandmoto on May 24, 2009 12:08:26 GMT -5
Thanks, 90GTVert - exactly the specific advice I was hoping for. Dumb question #1 (in what will be a looooong series): how are you able to identify which engine is used on a particular bike? Websites typically don't give info at that level of detail - I suspect sales guys reached by phone often won't know either. Are the engines marked somewhere with the 1E40QMB identifier? In poking around, I came across this clone of the similar Vento - www.scootersus.com/stradaRX8.htmlIs the pup gonna have the 1E40QMB Minarelli type you recommend? Ther Rattler is very tempting. This discussion on the Rattler enthusiasts site is the one I refered to earlier where the guy cites designed-in limitations to breathing: www.genuinerattler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=418So tempting as it is, the Rat seems to be very much a one-of-a-kind thing. There's a Brit expat living in Taiwan who posts on a lotta scoot forums, and he is able to get some gear for it there, but that's about it for the time being. With those constraints in mind, it was my thought to start with a decent quality baseline platform, and learn as I built on it. The naked Triton you're developing right now seems to be just about ideal to me...granted that it started out with a bigger engine, but as you say, the sky's the limit. I appreciate the advice - the local 2T-only shop I mentioned carriesstrictly Taiwanese and Slovenian machines; there's a big pig-in-a-poke factor (for me) in buying PRC scoots off the 'Net, so the guidance is critical. |
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xs650
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Post by xs650 on May 24, 2009 13:28:40 GMT -5
I thought 2 strokes were supposed to be more expensive, here is one I found that is the same kind of price as a 4 stroke 50cc, I have no idea if it is a minarelli clone or not. I do not know if it can be sold in California. All else being equal, a 2-smoke should be less expensive for a 49 state version. It would cost a bunch to bring one into California emmissions compliance. If you want a newish 2-smoke, you can import them into California as used vehicles if they have 7,500+ miles on them and meet the standards of the state they were sold in, in most cases, that's 49 state standards. People have been known to set odometers ahead to 7500+ miles to get lightly used 49 state motorcycles registered in California. I would never recommend such a dastardly deed though. ;D Piaggio was working with Dr Gordon Blair and crew at Queens university Belfast and had an interesting stratified charge 2-stroke engine in the works when I was involved a cevelopment program that also used Dr Blair's services. Did that ever get into production? it was going to meet tight standards. I'm going to make another post with links to some 2-stroke literature I just ran across. |
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Post by 90GTVert on May 24, 2009 13:45:58 GMT -5
Dumb question #1 (in what will be a looooong series): how are you able to identify which engine is used on a particular bike? Websites typically don't give info at that level of detail - I suspect sales guys reached by phone often won't know either. Are the engines marked somewhere with the 1E40QMB identifier? It should say 1E40QMB on the case at the top near the rear. When looking online I usually just examine the pics if no engine type is present. I look at the CVT cover, the fan shroud, the exhaust and it's mounts, and anything else I can make out in the pics to see if it's a minarelli. Yeah. That's a pretty popular one. I've seen more of those locally than Tritons. Ther Rattler is very tempting. This discussion on the Rattler enthusiasts site is the one I refered to earlier where the guy cites designed-in limitations to breathing: www.genuinerattler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=418So tempting as it is, the Rat seems to be very much a one-of-a-kind thing. There's a Brit expat living in Taiwan who posts on a lotta scoot forums, and he is able to get some gear for it there, but that's about it for the time being. With those constraints in mind, it was my thought to start with a decent quality baseline platform, and learn as I built on it. The naked Triton you're developing right now seems to be just about ideal to me...granted that it started out with a bigger engine, but as you say, the sky's the limit. I've never looked into the Rattler enough to give you any sound advice. From reading the link you posted, it does sound like modding a Rattler is best suited for someone willing to fabricate or search the globe for parts. That said, it'll prob outrun a lot of scoots in it's stock form. Of course, if you want a 100cc minarelli, there's a lot of work and part searching involved there too. The engine has to come completely apart, the cases need to be machined to fit the larger crankshaft and cylinder, you'll probably want to port match the cases to the larger cylinder kit, etc... Some of the parts for the 100cc minarelli will need to be ordered overseas (I paid $100 in shipping alone to get my 100cc pipe). If you just want to do a bit of modding and have a quick scoot, there's no need to go all the way to 90-100-100+cc though. My mild 70cc scoot was a lot fo fun for a little money. I still want another mild 70cc scoot. It got better gas milage, had a similar top speed, was a lot cheaper, and a lot less work. |
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Post by redhandmoto on May 24, 2009 16:59:38 GMT -5
Ah. Overseas shipping - Ouch!
A lot to think about, but on the whole, the $1500 delivered 49cc scoot, with a view toward an eventual upgrade to a mild 70, variator and spring tuning, and better exhaust probably makes more sense for me.
Out of the box, the Rat is a 55mph-or-so bike that must get titled, tagged, and insured to be ridden at all, before any mods - that's 3100 + ins. OTD. Anybody who gets one is probably going to want to see the magic 60mph out of it.
The $1500 Strada RX8 is interesting, but at 246 lbs dry, it seems kinda heavy for a 49cc bike. How much lard could practically be removed?
Also thought about the Rattler's little brother, the 49cc Roughouse. At $2000 MSRP, it's not significantly smaller than the Rat, seen side-by-side. It seems to be well-regarded. Unrestricted (by removing a variator washer and opening the exhaust), it is said to be good for an honest 45mph. Don't know the engine type, and nobody''s 'specs' for it list the weight.
Well, I got time. I'm going to have to lose one of the bigger scoots to finance my way into a 2T and any mods to it, and that means selling the PS250 (a solid ride; unusual, though, and not for everybody).
Thanks again for the input.
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CAN YOU HELP ME OUT MAN,AS i LOST ME JOB DUE TO NOT BEING ABLE TO GET THERE?ANY INF