convert scooter to 12V DC Work in Progress

noday
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convert scooter to 12V DC Work in Progress Jun 17, 2011 12:54:06 GMT -5

Quote

Post by noday on Jun 17, 2011 12:54:06 GMT -5

I want to publicly thank Rebel for providing the wiring diagrams and other support in this project.

How to convert a 50 or 150 GY6 scooter to 12V DC.

most GY6 based scooters use a mixed AC-DC electrical system.

The 12V DC side is used for some of the lights ( brake and turn signal/flasher lights ), gas gauge, the electric starter and to recharge the battery.

The spark plug ignition is AC powered from a single pole of the stator and is independent of the 12V DC and the AC lighting circuits.

The headlights, tail lights and running lights are AC powered.

Another way to logically separate AC and DC lights is: lights controlled by the key switch are DC.... lights that come on only when the motor is running are AC. There is always some variation from scooter to scooter.

The 12 V DC wattage in the stock electrical system is quite limited. 6 pole stator ::: 30 to 50 watts... 8 pole ::: 50 to 70 watts. the regulated 12V DC does not have enough supply wattage to run a high intensity (HID) headlight and to keep the battery charged enough for the electric starter to work.

A drawback of AC is that you can not run HID or LED bulbs from AC

a link about theory of how a 12 V DC system works on a scooter with stator generated AC electrical power.

trailtech.net/media/electrical/dc_conversions/ac-dc_key_concepts.pdf

you will need to make some changes in the wiring so that all the lights run from the battery. you will also need to install a switch for the 12 V lights, other wise headlights will draw too much current and the starter will not be able to crank the motor. make sure the switch can carry the amp load.

A 12 V DC system basically runs every thing from the battery. The stator and regulator rectifier keeps the battery fully charged ...... more or less how most cars work.

you may need to increase the wire size for the headlight circuit. One advantage to AC for high amp draw lights is that AC can use a smaller size wire than 12 V DC. If the load is too high for the wire size, the wire will get hot and things will melt.

conversion to a 11 pole stator, flywheel and regulator will also up the 12V regulated wattage enough to run high wattage headlights and LEDs.

the drawback of the 11 pole stator conversion is bolt holes do not always line up correctly. timing may be off because of a different location of the trigger coil pole on the stator and expense. 3 components must be changed: stator, flywheel and RR. cost in the $150 range. The 11 pole is more likely to fit a gy6 150 than a 50.

an alternative modification is to use a Trail Tech Full Wave regulator rectifier (150 watts) and modify your current stator to work with the TT. The watt rating is maximal rated output. it does not mean you will get that many usable watts. ( usable watts will depend on the stator output )

www.trailtech.net/7003-RR150.html about $45

The trail Tech RR is available from several online retailers, as well as Ebay and Amazon

the stock GY6 regulator rectifier / stator electrical system is usually single phase 1/2 wave. Only 1/2 of the AC stator output is converted to 12 V DC.

The TT RR is a full wave RR and outputs 2 X the 12V wattage from the AC input compared to the stock GY6 1/2 wave RR. You should get about 80 usable watts with a 6 pole stator and 100-110 watts with a 8 pole.

The 8 pole stator conversion gives total usable watts similar to an 11 pole, with some differences. The 12 V from the 8 is not as smooth as the 11. the 11 gives better amps at low rpms.

the conversion will work without a battery but the voltage will be spiky and may burn out the odd component due to poor voltage control. at least one guy burned out the TT RR running without a battery.

a battery or capacitor is used to smooth the DC voltage if you want to power any electronic devices such as a GPS, video cam, etc.

you can not just swap a full wave RR for the stock GY6 RR as the internal wiring of a stock stator must be modified to produce a floating full wave output.

the convention in wiring colors for stator output is: yellow carries the AC. a stock GY6 stator has 1 yellow ( AC ) wire paired with ( ? white )

The TT RR requires that the stator AC output not be strapped to ground but to "float"

The TT RR has 2 yellow AC inputs from the stator and 2 12V DC connections ( red & Black ) to the battery plus a 3rd blue (used for 4AH batteries ).

The instructions & wiring guide for the TT RR are here:

www.trailtech.net/media/instructions/lights/regrec/010-ELV-71.pdf

Instructions for stator conversion are here:

trailtech.net/media/electrical/dc_conversions/ktm_dc_conversion.pdf

you swap some connections ( wire ends ) on the stator and add a 2nd yellow wire ( to keep with the convention of yellow wire = AC )

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is more to the conversion than just the stator conversion and RR swap. the threads below are helpful in sorting out the other mods needed.

more to follow in later posts for details

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Below are threads on other forums about converting to a 12 V DC system. These threads go back several years & are a mix of posts about 6 8 and 11 pole stators. the posts are usually about 150 GY6 engines.

scootdawg threads

scootdawg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=talk&action=display&thread=24883

scootdawg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=talk&action=display&thread=8929

scootdawg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=talk&action=display&thread=21253

scootdawg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=talk&action=display&thread=10003

i have read thru the threads several times and the info appears accurate.

It would be nice if there was a single web page with complete information about this, like some of 90GTVert's well done, how to pages.

There is probably one around somewhere, but I have yet to find it.

revised 19jun11, 7aug11

Last Edit: Aug 7, 2011 6:04:35 GMT -5 by noday

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noday
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convert scooter to 12V DC Work in Progress Jun 18, 2011 8:15:55 GMT -5

Quote

Post by noday on Jun 18, 2011 8:15:55 GMT -5

more info:

<edit 19jun11>

I had thought that perhaps you could use a china 11 pole RR for a 6 or 8 pole stator based conversion, but not.

the 11 pole RR is 3 phase so will not work properly with a single phase stator.

Last Edit: Jun 19, 2011 14:01:25 GMT -5 by noday

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noday
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convert scooter to 12V DC Work in Progress Jun 19, 2011 13:58:12 GMT -5

Quote

Post by noday on Jun 19, 2011 13:58:12 GMT -5

I revised the original post to give more background info and to make the idea understandable. I first ran across this idea a few months ago on ruckus forums. there was never any details only that a few people had made the swap & were happy with the results. a few also burned out either the stator or the RR on their first try.

could do with a few pics I guess as well as a color coded standard GY6 wiring diagram showing where and what changes need to made to which wires for the switch over to work properly.

notes on 11 pole stators::::

some scoots, KYMCO perhaps and a few others use a pure 12 V DC system that includes a DC CDI the stators for those systems on sale on Ebay have no trigger coil pole. some variations also have 2 trigger pole coils.

you need to match the right type.

there are at least 2 different 8 pole type stators on the 150cc GY6 engines (aside from the different trigger pole variants mentioned above).

the 2 trigger pole variants apparently are Honda. Most of this is difficult to figure out as sellers usually don't give much real information other than: the # of wires and the color of the wires

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locomonza
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convert scooter to 12V DC Work in Progress Jul 8, 2011 19:43:05 GMT -5

Quote

Post by locomonza on Jul 8, 2011 19:43:05 GMT -5

Hi, I have a question, in the stator conversion in figure 3 and 4 they show a extension wire from the AC output to where?? I really dont understand, sorry!!!, BTW, I have a 11 poles stator can I do this conversion or it is only for 8 poles???
Thank you in advance !!
Alex

Last Edit: Jul 8, 2011 19:52:06 GMT -5 by locomonza

noday
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convert scooter to 12V DC Work in Progress Jul 9, 2011 4:56:12 GMT -5

Quote

Post by noday on Jul 9, 2011 4:56:12 GMT -5

the extension is used to add more "wire loops" to the poles to increase the output amps. see step #4

what the conversion does:

the 1/2 wave stator has output strapped to ground and 1 output (yellow wire) going to the voltage regulator converter.

the old grounded wire inside the stator is disconnected from ground and "floats".

the white wire end now becomes a new 2nd output (or you can connect a new yellow wire to it) so that there are then 2 outputs to go to the new TT regulator rectifier

yes .... this conversion is for 6 and 8 pole stators.... an 11 pole stator is already full wave and has 3 AC phases (3 yellow wires) of AC output converted to DC by the RR

Last Edit: Aug 7, 2011 6:12:27 GMT -5 by noday

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locomonza Cadet Posts: 27	convert scooter to 12V DC Work in Progress Jul 9, 2011 13:11:54 GMT -5 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by locomonza on Jul 9, 2011 13:11:54 GMT -5 Ok, thank you very much!!!!!

noday
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convert scooter to 12V DC Work in Progress Aug 2, 2011 10:50:27 GMT -5

Quote

Post by noday on Aug 2, 2011 10:50:27 GMT -5

I have found what appears to be a cheap alternative to the TT RR on Ebay.

listed under regulator rectifier ZJ-125 and FXD125. both appear the same and are 5 wire.

wattage and amperage unknown.

shipped price from china about $10

2 yellows, red, black and green

2 yellows take the AC from the "modified to full wave" stator outputs

red to (+) lights and battery

black to (-) lights and battery

? green to frame ground ?

or is green an AC leg to be paired with yellow for AC running lights for sport bike or ATV ?
*****************************
found these specs for another fxd 125 RR

www.tradezz.com/buy_2800934_REGULATOR-FXD125-CG125.htm
--------------------------------------------------------------
Motorcycle regulator/rectifier for FXD125/CG125/QJ125 motorcycle
FXD125 regulator
Three phase and full wave.
With DC charging, AC voltage regulation function.
Charge and regulating stability.
Battery overcharge protection and battery open circuit protection.
Apply to FXD125/CG125/QJ125 motorcycle.

1. Working temperature: -20°c - +60°c
2. Storage temperature: -40°c - +85°c
3. Maximum regulate current: 10A (AC)
4. Maximum charge current: 6A (DC)
5. Regulating voltage: 14.5V±0.5
--------------------------------------------------------

6A @ 14V= 85 Watts for DC

wired G Y B W R

so this looks like G is probably an AC leg

I do not see how this can be 3 phase.

the rating matches a 6 pole stator in terms of amps. would be too small for an 8 pole. the stators that match this dirt bike RR are 4 pole, 1 trigger, 3 charging.
*****************************************

the TT RR has a blue instead of a green wire.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
from TT

for small batteries of 4AH the blue is to the ( -) battery terminal. & the battery is only used to run the starter.

I think blue allows the TT RR to monitor battery charge and not overcharge the small battery.

the lighting circuits run only from the stator.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

for batteries larger than 4AH, the blue is not used and the TT RR both charges the battery and runs the lights, at the same time

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

unknown at this time if the green wire on the china RR version should be used or not. it will take some measuring and experimentation to find out.

other thoughts.

probably best to use a 5 pin 12v relay that turns the lighting circuits off when the starter relay is triggered.

the control for the light relay should be patched into the starter switch, so that when the starter switch is on, lights are off

the other required wiring modification is to "float" all the lighting circuits.

on some scoots, the frame (ground) is used as part of the return circuit for lights. this was also done in US cars yrs ago.

Last Edit: Aug 7, 2011 5:16:44 GMT -5 by noday

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Rebel Administrator Posts: 6,912	convert scooter to 12V DC Work in Progress Aug 2, 2011 14:10:19 GMT -5 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Rebel on Aug 2, 2011 14:10:19 GMT -5 I hosted the pic for you, it will not go away.
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noday
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convert scooter to 12V DC Work in Progress Aug 2, 2011 15:06:37 GMT -5

Quote

Post by noday on Aug 2, 2011 15:06:37 GMT -5

thanks rebel:

$10 for a new RR and $5 for the relay makes this certainly look like an inexpensive way to get the 12V DC power needed for an HID headlight upgrade on 50cc 6 pole stator scooters.

then another $25 for a 35W HID headlight kit and we can actually see where we are going at night.

$10 for the bulb kit and another $10 for a ballast $5 for another relay.

even if this RR is 100W v the 150W of the TrailTech, there is more than enough amperage to power all the lights and still keep the scooter battery charged.

adding LEDs for running, tail and stop lights will add to the amps available for the battery.

certainly looking more and more doable on a shoestring budget.

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noday
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convert scooter to 12V DC Work in Progress Aug 3, 2011 8:58:28 GMT -5

Quote

Post by noday on Aug 3, 2011 8:58:28 GMT -5

some more info.

you should consider adding a fuse panel so that each part of the harness:::: to headlights, tail lights, turn signals, etc are on a different fuse.

an idle thought, is the green wire on the above posted RR an AC side matched to yellow AC on a 125 sport bike or ATV for lights ?

next is a typical scooter wiring schematic. your scooter probably will vary in terms of some wire colors and other details.

to make the diagram more readable, you can download the pic to your own computer and use an image viewer to enlarge it so that it is easier to see/read all the wire labels.

note the wire colors. this has a 4 pin RR for a 1/2 wave stator.

yellow is AC stator output ( regulated by the RR to around 14.5 V ) and powers lights, horn, etc and the old 1/2 wave RR.

note Y/G is not the same as Y when following wires. ( you must be able to read the wire label codes and not just look at the apparent color on the diagram )

green is the other AC side of yellow, kind of like a white neutral in residential buildings.

red is regulated ( + ) 12V DC

to convert, with a new Full Wave RR( FWRR) , the yellow input to the wiring harness needs to be connected to red output from the FWRR, (same as ( + ) battery terminal) by a switch.

In the above linked scootdawg threads, they tied to the black wire from the key switch, which is the 12 V (+)

black only powers a few things, fuel and volt gauges, dimmer control, horn, turn signals & brake lights....& starter relay, all low current draw.

this switch will not standup to the current draw for all the running lights, headlight, tail light etc.

so we will need another large amp capacity switch.

the green source needs to be connected to the ( - ) battery terminal

for the cdi.... you should be able to leave B/R, R/B and R/W, Br/W from the stator as is when the stator is rewired.

the enricher (choke on the carb) must be rewired to the now DC circuit.

more to come.

when I get all of the info together, will revise this to an article with how to pics, etc

edited more than once

Last Edit: Aug 4, 2011 15:45:31 GMT -5 by noday

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Rebel Administrator Posts: 6,912	convert scooter to 12V DC Work in Progress Aug 3, 2011 11:05:04 GMT -5 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Rebel on Aug 3, 2011 11:05:04 GMT -5 I have the original diagram and I'll make the changes you outlined if you like, then post it in here. It might be a day or two.
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noday
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convert scooter to 12V DC Work in Progress Aug 3, 2011 11:32:24 GMT -5

Quote

Post by noday on Aug 3, 2011 11:32:24 GMT -5

Thank you rebel,

I have just been posting things as I find them. I know it is not well organized, as of yet, so that it reads clearly and makes complete sense.

this thread seems like the best way for me keep all this together.

I am sure there are still other ( unknown at this point ) details to be worked out and this will not be fully resolved until I actually have all the parts in hand and have the full conversion working.

work sure slows down tinkering.

it looked much simpler when I first started. lol

--------------------------------------------------------------------

added

re: diagram

there are several things that need to be well thought out and resolved before finishing a guide on this.

a scooter Key Switch will never handle a full 12V dc lighting load over time. it will burn out.

a 12V relay driven from the KS will pull 5 watts or so. I don't think a 6 pole has 5 watts to spare.

so I think a manual light on/off switch is probably needed.

we need at least 2 amps (25 watts ) left over after everything else is powered up to replace the battery charge used in starting.

take worst case... a 6 pole stator and 80 DC watts output (6 A @ 14 V )

35 watts for headlight & 25 watts for recharge..... this leaves 20 watts for all other lights, gauges and the enricher.

in one of the threads linked above, a poster said that he did the conversion from 6 pole and it did not keep his battery charged. he went to an 11 pole stator & RR.

conclusion, an 8 pole stator is the minimum needed for a 12 V DC conversion.

more thinking and discussion needed

Last Edit: Aug 4, 2011 9:30:25 GMT -5 by noday

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Rebel Administrator Posts: 6,912	convert scooter to 12V DC Work in Progress Aug 6, 2011 21:25:36 GMT -5 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Rebel on Aug 6, 2011 21:25:36 GMT -5 Changes to the diagram from Noday's directions;
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noday
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convert scooter to 12V DC Work in Progress Aug 7, 2011 5:08:29 GMT -5

Quote

Post by noday on Aug 7, 2011 5:08:29 GMT -5

Thanks to Rebel again for his support and help with this project.

notes about the 2nd diagram above.

this only applies when using a Trail Tech regulator rectifier ( or other similar full wave RR )

you scooter wiring harness may have different wire colors and may have wires routed in a different manner.

a 7AH or larger battery is recommended.

when you compare the "old" diagram to the "new" you should note the differences.

the stator only supplies AC to the RR ( by 2 yellow wires) there are no other AC supplied circuits

most of the lights, including headlight, are now controlled thru a switch, from the battery ( red wire with a new fuse). new fuse 7 to 10 amp

Green is now the (-) side of a 12V DC circuit

Red is the (+) side of the same circuit (always on)

Black ( with the exception of the battery (-) to ground) is switched (+) 12V DC.

there are now 2 different switched 12V DC circuits, one controlled by the key and one by a new light switch.

choke ( enricher) is now switched by the key switch.

brake light and turn signal lights work only when the key switch is on.

I welcome any comments or suggestions.

Last Edit: Aug 7, 2011 5:11:50 GMT -5 by noday

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homernukem Cadet Posts: 2	convert scooter to 12V DC Work in Progress Sept 9, 2011 14:22:49 GMT -5 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by homernukem on Sept 9, 2011 14:22:49 GMT -5 Why can't I just wire my system like this and have it be completely DC